Eric Sheinkop built Music Dealers into the world's largest commercial music provider serving Disney, McDonald's, and Coca-Cola before successfully exiting. He then raised $25M with his wife Judith, a former Coca-Cola executive, to launch Desire Company, now the leading content provider for Target, Walmart, and Best Buy. From discovering McDonald's royalty checks weren't a mistake to coming up $20K short on payroll, Eric reveals why the founders who win are those who treat their mission like religion and their ego like poison.

• ‍Watch on YouTube
• Spotify‍
• Apple Podcasts

______

🌟 Highlights

• World's largest music dealer: 600+ clients including Disney, McDonald's, Coca-Cola
• The 2008 goldmine: Replaced $1M famous songs with $10K indie tracks
• McDonald's royalty revelation: "My brother said 'Do that again'"
• $20K short on payroll: The moment that defines every founder
• Coca-Cola exec to startup reality: Judith's six-month wake-up call
• Ego tax: "I opened 7 offices because the business card looked cool"
• $25M raised, 30 employees, 7000 sq ft studio—second time's the charm
• Mission as North Star: "When you see our seal, you know it's real"

______

⏱️ Timestamps / Chapters

00:00 — Music industry calling: Wanted the business, not the stage
03:00 — The royalty discovery: McDonald's checks that changed everything
07:00 — Financial crisis opportunity: How 2008 created Music Dealers
13:00 — Desire Company today: Dominating retail media networks
20:00 — Growth under pressure moment: Payroll crisis and empty bank
24:00 — Partner pressure: When Judith left Coca-Cola for startup life
29:00 — Expensive education: Product-market fit should come first
33:00 — Leadership evolution: From ego to empowerment
39:00 — Protecting the partnership: Family time and bathroom business bans
43:00 — Lemonade legacy: Teaching 3-year-old Stiles entrepreneurship
47:00 — Mission focus: "Never compromise on why you started"

‍

______

🙌 Want more from AdaptCFO?

• Free CFO consultation
• Financial fitness scorecard
• Other episodes
• AdaptCFO case studies

______

Transcript

Speaker 1 is Eric Sheinkop

Speaker 2 is Eric Josovitz

‍

Speaker 2

Welcome back to growth under pressure. I'm your host, Eric Josovitz. It's today. I'm joined by entrepreneur and author Eric Sheinkop from Early brand building experiments to scaling music dealers and now leading the Desire Company. Eric's career is a masterclass in bold bets and rebuilding after hard hits. Eric, great to have you.

‍

00:00:48:19 - 00:00:50:20

Speaker 1

Wonderful to be here. Good to see you again, Eric.

‍

00:00:51:07 - 00:01:09:09

Speaker 2

Always a pleasure. It's been a while. Yeah. Eric Let's go back to the beginning. Before the platforms and partnerships, you were obsessed with building brands and stepping into the startup world. What was the moment you decided? I'm all in on brand creation and entrepreneurship. And what did the first real step look like for you?

‍

00:01:10:14 - 00:01:34:18

Speaker 1

Yeah, I mean, I would say that truthfully, when I initially had my first startup, I didn't know the word startup. Like, it wasn't a thing. It wasn't there was no community. There was no there were no VCs in Chicago, which is where I started this, my first company. So we were just hustle and just working like I didn't know.

‍

00:01:35:12 - 00:01:52:06

Speaker 1

It wasn't a conscious decision, like, okay, we're going to sit down and we're going to put together a business plan, we're going to get funding, we're going to build. It wasn't at all like that. It was kind of just like this natural. This is what I'm doing. Looking and observing what's working. And I was doing a lot of things.

‍

00:01:52:06 - 00:02:20:21

Speaker 1

I was working in a recording studio. I was managing artists. I was throwing concerts. And then I found where the most success was, which was in placing music into commercials and movies. And the more I started learning about that aspect of it is when I actually it was actually my brother. He was a financial advisor. He's 13 years older than me.

‍

00:02:21:02 - 00:02:37:29

Speaker 1

And he looked at me and he knew I was always, you know, broke and all of a sudden I had some money. And he's like, Where are you getting this money from? Like, I know your concerts that you throw and things like that. It can't be paying that well. And I was like, Man, I placed a song in a McDonald's commercial, and this money just keeps on coming every month.

‍

00:02:37:29 - 00:02:56:21

Speaker 1

I don't know what that's about. And he looked into it. At first, honestly, I thought it was a mistake. I thought they just kept on paying me every month. And he looked into it and he was like, These are royalties and you'll get it every time the commercial airs. So do that again. And I did it again and then again.

‍

00:02:56:21 - 00:03:21:05

Speaker 1

And he was like, okay, this is a real business. Forget everything else that you're doing. You know, forget all of that and go all in on this. And that was that was the moment that that I did. And then he he was he was a big mentor in business and helped me, you know, just kind of think through what growing it should look like and how to go about doing that.

‍

00:03:21:21 - 00:03:30:29

Speaker 2

That's amazing. So did you lose any of the fun that you were having with the concerts and all the other, you know, versus sending artists and all that to do you? Did you lose a lot of that?

‍

00:03:31:03 - 00:03:58:02

Speaker 1

Yeah. I mean, I would say representing artists is not that fun. It's basically glorified babysitting. But there are fun moments in that. What what I always tell people, though, is when your passion something that you love, that you love doing, it turns into your job. It becomes a job and it's not you don't have the same fun that you used to because there's all of a sudden pressure.

‍

00:03:58:15 - 00:04:20:05

Speaker 1

And then as I started growing, like I could have stayed on my on my couch hanging out all day and made good money. But I made a conscious decision that I was going to start hiring people, that I was going to start growing the company, that I wanted to have a big, powerful company in the music industry. And with that decision, then comes all types of different responsibilities.

‍

00:04:20:05 - 00:04:39:13

Speaker 1

So a lot that I wasn't aware of and that I wasn't mentally ready for at the time. And it just, you know, really was so natural. But then once you have to pay people every two weeks, it's not as fun to, to do the things that you once got a lot of enjoyment out of doing. To be honest.

‍

00:04:40:04 - 00:04:49:07

Speaker 2

I remember having chats about that and, you know, making payroll. I think every startup entrepreneur has a day where they are questioning if they can make payroll or not.

‍

00:04:49:16 - 00:05:17:22

Speaker 1

Oh, yeah. Gotcha. I mean, even even if you have a bunch of even if you come from a wealthy family or have a trust or, you know, whatever, when when what you're doing isn't paying the bills and you have to keep on relying on this other money to cover your expenses and your costs, like at some point you that that's not going to sustain.

‍

00:05:17:23 - 00:05:26:03

Speaker 1

It's not sustainable. And it's it's something that every single founder has to deal with at some point or another.

‍

00:05:26:25 - 00:05:40:28

Speaker 2

And you're supporting other families. The more your business grows, the more families you support. And it's it's like the age old, you know, Marvel, Spider-Man, you know, with great risk, with great power comes great responsibility. Right.

‍

00:05:41:02 - 00:06:03:05

Speaker 1

Yeah. I mean, the the funny thing was with music dealers, like, first I just hired all my friends, right? Like, so it was like 30 of us. And, I mean, Jeremy will remember this time well in, but it was like, you know, the people that I loved hanging out with, and they were the ones that every day we were going into the office together and it was fun.

‍

00:06:03:17 - 00:06:41:28

Speaker 1

But I didn't feel as responsible because there they were, you know, we were all kids. And I'll never forget when we started hiring like experienced people with their own kids and with families. And that then that pressure got real. Like when I realized that if we didn't do well, this month, that I could, you know, really mess up or hurt somebody whose entire livelihood that has kids and a wife that's dependent on them or a husband that's depending on them, that's when it that's when the pressure is on.

‍

00:06:42:25 - 00:06:59:25

Speaker 2

Yeah. There's a lot that comes with being a you know, being a leader of a startup. There's just so much that people don't realize, especially nowadays. I heard someone say, you know, everyone wants to be their own CEO and be their own boss, but there really is a lot that comes with it.

‍

00:07:01:02 - 00:07:18:08

Speaker 1

Even my even my yoga studio that I go to like the manager was so stressed out the other day. She's just used to be one of the teachers and she loved her job and she loved being there. And I saw it and I was talking her. She was she was like, you could see that she was visibly stressed in a yoga studio.

‍

00:07:18:18 - 00:07:35:00

Speaker 1

And I was like, You good. And I've known her for years. And she was like, Yeah. She was like, You know, since I've become the manager, like this place, it is difficult. Like, do it. And I said the same thing. I was like, Yeah, when your passion becomes your job, it's a whole different ballgame. That's a good it doesn't matter what industry or how big or small.

‍

00:07:35:00 - 00:07:37:09

Speaker 1

It's, it's pressure's real.

‍

00:07:37:22 - 00:07:58:20

Speaker 2

Yeah. And I think there's something to say about where you want to go in life, because I have this feeling and I think it's true. You can, you can correct me, but you can do anything at any level that you want to. You pick it and then you say, Hey, I want to be an expert or I want to be advanced or professional, or I just want to do the same thing.

‍

00:07:58:20 - 00:08:17:23

Speaker 2

And, you know, I have a ton of senior accountants and one of them is really awesome at her job, but she clocks in at the same time and clocks out at the same time every day. And when that when that clock hit zero zero, she's out. But she is efficient with her work and she does a great job.

‍

00:08:17:23 - 00:08:18:18

Speaker 2

And that's okay.

‍

00:08:19:02 - 00:08:43:13

Speaker 1

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it takes all time, but but it shows like that. It's not her passion. She wants to get home and get to her. You know what she's passionate about. We actually I had a sales summit in Atlanta today and we had a guest speaker and she came in and she was like, the truth is like, I don't care at all about ad tech.

‍

00:08:43:13 - 00:09:00:10

Speaker 1

I'm like, I don't care about the thing that I'm selling, but I love the sales part and that's what I focus on. And she was giving this like very motivational talk. But yeah, a lot of people aren't passionate about what they actually have to do day to day. A lot of times they're more passionate about what it means to be in that environment.

‍

00:09:00:20 - 00:09:17:18

Speaker 2

Yeah, for sure. When you started at music dealers, I mean, I don't like to throw around the word regret a lot, but do you what, you feel like there was something else that you could have also taken up like another path or another industry that was also on the same plate?

‍

00:09:19:09 - 00:09:42:03

Speaker 1

I would tell you that I wanted to be in the music industry all my life. Like since I was seven years old. I used to tell people I'm going to be in the music industry, and I would say, I don't want to be a professional musician. Although I studied every single instrument, I've played in bands all my life, like I was always in music, but I never wanted to be a musician.

‍

00:09:42:03 - 00:10:00:24

Speaker 1

I wanted to be in the business. It was all I cared about. Like I didn't want to go to college, I didn't want to do anything. I did go to college, which I I'm grateful that my parents were really forced on me. But even there, like I had a radio show on the college radio station, I deejay three nights a week.

‍

00:10:00:24 - 00:10:21:25

Speaker 1

I would bring in the artists to perform at the university like I always want. And every waking second that I had, I always had like a little studio set up in my room, and I was always recording musicians and and making music. So there was no other place that I wanted to go. I just didn't know what the music industry meant.

‍

00:10:21:25 - 00:10:56:25

Speaker 1

I don't even know what it was like. Again, like Chicago wasn't very big in the music industry and I didn't have any real connections in that world, so I didn't know what direction I wanted to go in it because I didn't know what the options were. So it was kind of just like a natural thing. Looking back, I don't have any regrets about going in that area because it's where I found the gap, like licensing music and it was kind of a timing situation in the market as well.

‍

00:10:56:25 - 00:11:26:11

Speaker 1

It was. I started that company in 2007, 2008, and that was the financial crisis. And what happened was a lot of big brands lost their ad budgets the way that not all of it, but they didn't have the extra money to spend on splashy advertising. And a lot of the big costs of advertising television commercials specifically was licensing a famous artist, a famous song into a television commercial.

‍

00:11:26:11 - 00:11:57:16

Speaker 1

It could cost, you know, $1,000,000 more sometimes. And what I had was access to music that sounded as good as the stuff you would hear on the radio. But it was all independent artists, so it was incredibly affordable. And that was a gap that I saw in the market. We went after it and you know, quickly we became the largest provider to Disney, McDonald's, Coca Cola, Viacom, like 600 huge clients.

‍

00:11:57:16 - 00:12:19:11

Speaker 1

And that was I was very proud of finding that gap, seen it before anybody else. We were the first on on the scene doing anything like it grew to the largest in the world. So no, I don't have regrets about that. There are a lot of steps and missteps along the way I would do differently. But, you know, it's all meant to be.

‍

00:12:19:29 - 00:12:23:27

Speaker 2

That's amazing. Well, it's safe to say that you learn from the school of hard knocks.

‍

00:12:24:05 - 00:12:24:24

Speaker 1

Yes.

‍

00:12:24:25 - 00:12:52:18

Speaker 2

On business. Yeah. Now let's fast forward to today gives us give us a snapshot of the desire company right now, what you're building, how it's performing and what's driving growth today. Quick call back for listeners. Five years ago you Judith and I were literally doing financial modeling around your dining room table. I don't know if you remember that, but from that moment to now, what's changed most about the business, the team traction, go to market, whatever you can share with us.

‍

00:12:53:00 - 00:13:19:12

Speaker 1

Yeah, I mean, that's it. It's amazing to look back and think that we were sitting in the dining room table and writing on Post-it notes on the wall, like what we wanted to build as a company and how we were going to get there. No product market fit, not knowing what our product was even going to be. And now we're the the leading supplier of product content for retailers and brands.

‍

00:13:19:12 - 00:13:52:00

Speaker 1

So we match we have the world's largest cross-disciplinary expert communities. So we have everybody from veterinarians and doctors and scientists to Olympic athletes to Rihanna's team and Beyonce's team. But rather than Beyonce, it's her nutritionist, her hairstylist, her physical therapist, her trainer, her chef. We have massage astronauts. We partner them with brands. They talk about the product, how to use it, why they like it, who to recommend it, who they recommend it for.

‍

00:13:52:00 - 00:14:20:13

Speaker 1

And then we put that content on retailers website. So you'll see our content with our logo on BestBuy and Target and Walmart and Sam's Club and Tractor Supply and Ulta Beauty. So all across the board. So it's become the leading the leading provider, especially in the retail media network world, which is the fastest growing industry right now.

‍

00:14:20:29 - 00:14:23:01

Speaker 2

Yeah. And what does the team look like these days?

‍

00:14:24:03 - 00:15:01:05

Speaker 1

A little over 30 people and so Judith, my wife and I are CEO and CEO, co-founders and then we did after your help getting us set up and we got funding and everything, we brought in a full time CFO who's wonderful, and then head of sales, sales, team sales enablement, marketing, production, pre-production, post-production, expert recruitment, like it's a pretty, pretty big organization.

‍

00:15:01:18 - 00:15:13:20

Speaker 2

Yeah. And now, I mean, when we were working together, you were in Atlanta, working from home, your home office, and now you have a studio in Chicago. It's been a couple of years since you've had the studio. How's that going?

‍

00:15:13:20 - 00:15:39:22

Speaker 1

It's good. I still work from home and I'm still in the same home in my home office, but I'm actually in my wife's office right now. But it's great. We opened up. It's like a 7000 square foot studio in Chicago. It's it's phenomenal. We're filming, you know, every day and it's every type of product imaginable, which I was dealing today.

‍

00:15:39:22 - 00:16:03:10

Speaker 1

We were the team was installing sinks and fur for a company that, you know, the videos then go to Lowe's and Home Depot. But it's cool. I mean, it's a variety. Every single day is different. And I think that's a really exciting thing. It's challenging because it's not cookie cutter, but it's it's it's exhilarating.

‍

00:16:04:04 - 00:16:33:13

Speaker 2

Yeah, it's fun. It's you guys really have made, you know, a lot of progress and I know it's a lot of ups and downs, but, you know, I think having that background from music dealers, you know, translating that now to the Desire company, my my advice is that the startup world, you just have to be consistent and show up every day, even if that's five years or ten years or it expands beyond your horizon.

‍

00:16:34:14 - 00:16:46:17

Speaker 2

Do you have this? Do you have a goal, whether it's 5 to 10 years to exit? This is it. This is easier said than done, right? Like, but what does that look like for you?

‍

00:16:47:07 - 00:17:06:04

Speaker 1

Yeah, I mean, look, you can never build a company to sell, right? Because then you're going to concentrate on the wrong things and you're going to and you're going to blow through money without getting your foundation set up. So you have to build a business that with the thought that you could operate it every day for the rest of your life.

‍

00:17:06:04 - 00:17:36:14

Speaker 1

And that's going to be sustainable as is. That being said, once that's done, you could start looking for strategic opportunities to monetize it in the greatest way possible. And I think we are looking at that. It's, you know, I would if I would put about 20, 24 months on it until we find a good exit partner. The reason I say that is just because, you know, we've been approached lately, we're doing something that's never been done.

‍

00:17:36:14 - 00:18:10:23

Speaker 1

We're doing something very differential headed and it's working incredibly well. So with that and the shift that's happening in our industry, in the advertising industry, we have money going from your traditional advertising agencies to the retailers. But the retailers need support. They need help. So they're depending on us to help with more of their creative IT. We become very attractive to certain potential buyers.

‍

00:18:12:04 - 00:18:43:05

Speaker 2

And I feel I love what you said about staying in the moment and being, you know, enjoying that because there is something to say about exiting and staying, enjoying and in doing what you love, what you have wanted to do your whole life. Being this entertainment music industry. And it's just like the private equity model, like what they would do is they buy your company and then they would put the business aspects into it that you would have missed.

‍

00:18:43:05 - 00:18:59:00

Speaker 2

And they would scale it for you. So it's like doing that selling to private equity or to some buyer versus just continuing to do what you love day in, day out. There's there's a balance. There's I feel like there's not one answer for that.

‍

00:18:59:14 - 00:19:24:26

Speaker 1

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it also depends on the person and what else you want to do. Like, I do have ambitions to do other things, like eventually my wife has ambitions to do other things. So we're very happy. And she reminds me weekly that we have to enjoy the journey. It's not about getting to that outcome. It's not about that destination that we're going.

‍

00:19:24:27 - 00:19:52:22

Speaker 1

It's about the journey daily that we're on and finding, you know, that's rewarding is important because you never know what the outcome is going to be. But, you know, some people, like with music dealers, in all honesty, when we started getting offers to sell the company, I was not interested at all. I was like, Why would I ever sell this?

‍

00:19:52:22 - 00:20:15:21

Speaker 1

Like I love it. Like this is the greatest thing in the world. But I took money from investors and there's a lot of pressure that they want their return. And I don't really have a good grasp of that. At the time I was really young. This is a different story like we raised. We've raised over $25 million. Like I have a lot of responsibility to return that investment with a big multiple on it.

‍

00:20:16:03 - 00:20:28:20

Speaker 1

So we you know, we know what the what the the end results, the ideal and results will be. And but we have to enjoy the execution to.

‍

00:20:28:20 - 00:20:48:21

Speaker 2

So now you're driving to that target, that number that you need to reach. And it's so important to point out that the long term value in what happens when you take that money, because a lot of people in one of my first head of finance gigs, they took on like two and a half million dollars that it probably was more than that.

‍

00:20:48:21 - 00:21:18:24

Speaker 2

But in my mind it's like, you know, your the time value of money absolutely changes your perspective on it. But they bought they got a party bus and they they started they got a new office and next thing you know, money was running out. They needed a head of finance. And I, I jumped in. So, yeah, you absolutely need to be really responsible with the money that you get in those early days because it it's not it's not promised.

‍

00:21:19:20 - 00:21:47:22

Speaker 1

It is not promised and it is harder to raise money once you start making money sometimes unless you're making incredible leaps in your revenue month over month. Because when it's an idea, people are betting on the idea when it's real, people are just analyzing it and the CFO is getting involved and they're like, Well, I'm and this is how much it's worth.

‍

00:21:47:27 - 00:21:55:22

Speaker 1

This is how much we would invest. So it's actually harder to make money or to raise money in the early days once you start making money.

‍

00:21:56:01 - 00:22:25:27

Speaker 2

I found for sure for sure, there's definitely a heavy burden. It's it's like a it's a balance between heavy burden and nice to have. Yeah. So just leaning on cash flow a little bit and how that how that plays into the trajectory of the business. We always ask our our guest what was the you know, what was that growth under pressure moment for you where you weren't sure about tomorrow, you didn't know what was what was promised.

‍

00:22:26:15 - 00:22:34:21

Speaker 2

Things were tight. Can you think of one specific moment, whether it's cash or revenue or, you know, employees?

‍

00:22:35:25 - 00:23:04:24

Speaker 1

So I'll tell you, yeah, I remember two very specific moments, but one has is much more like with a tangible issue, which is I got a notification that payroll was $20,000 over what we had in the bank, and I did not have that money and we were not making money at the time. Like we weren't even in market trying to make money yet.

‍

00:23:05:01 - 00:23:32:28

Speaker 1

And I was already I ran out of money because at that time, you know, my wife and I, we were funding the company initially, and then my board members from my last company, they did they did give me $1,000,000 to go like figure something out and all of that. But that came a little later. And at the time and I knew money was coming, but I didn't have it.

‍

00:23:33:15 - 00:23:59:11

Speaker 1

And I needed $20,000, like to make payroll. And I remember waking up looking at my phone, having that alert on there and just sitting there in bed being like, okay, what are what do I do? Like, do I have to go sell my car? You know, do I ask people if I can borrow some money? Like I didn't even know what to do next?

‍

00:23:59:11 - 00:24:07:19

Speaker 1

I just knew by the end of that day I had to have $20,000. So. But, you know, I. I got it done.

‍

00:24:08:18 - 00:24:10:13

Speaker 2

Well, what was the other one?

‍

00:24:11:21 - 00:24:44:15

Speaker 1

The other the other one was just sitting with Judas in the living room and she had quit Coca Cola to do this. An executive position at Coca Cola. And I just and we weren't making traction. We weren't getting the company off the ground. And it was really hard. And a lot of people, especially when you come from the corporate world and then it's exciting and sexy to think that you're going to go run your own business and it's hard.

‍

00:24:44:27 - 00:25:20:18

Speaker 1

And I just saw it on her face, like she just I mean, we were she was like, you know, six months into it. And I saw that she was just exhausted and sad and disillusioned. And then I felt like responsible that she had seen me running a business for many years with music dealers. Thought it was a lot of fun, thought it was going to be easy that she could do it, of course, because she's an executive and has all this not institutional knowledge and came in and I remember talking about like, I'm going to have we're going to have to raise money and we don't have the money for four.

‍

00:25:20:21 - 00:25:41:01

Speaker 1

You know, we only have a month of payroll left and this and that. And like, we had already raised a couple of million dollars at that point. We didn't we were needed more money within a couple of months. And I just saw her like, look of just it was it made me really sad. Like, really sad. I was like, Damn, I can't believe I put her in this situation.

‍

00:25:41:05 - 00:25:59:19

Speaker 1

And we have children. You know, it's a big responsibility and that just sucks. And I knew immediately like, okay, I've got to go raise real money. Like I've got to go raise millions of dollars and just make sure we buy ourself enough time that it reduces some of that stress and anxiety. It's overwhelming.

‍

00:26:00:15 - 00:26:23:05

Speaker 2

Yeah, it can get in. That sounds really hard. And I know, I know a little bit how that feels it. You know, they say that with every kid or, you know, with every responsibility, you get blessed with more. And I feel like that, you know, when you have that balance, that family work life balance, it's not I feel like it all should it shouldn't all be work.

‍

00:26:23:05 - 00:26:28:19

Speaker 2

But the kids and the wife, they drive, you know, push to another level.

‍

00:26:29:11 - 00:26:53:29

Speaker 1

Absolutely. I mean, we have we have a daughter who just went into her sophomore year of college. We have a girl who today's her birthday turned 17 today and at home senior in high school. And we have a three and a half year old baby. So it's like we have a lot of blessings, which to your point, come with a lot of responsibilities.

‍

00:26:54:04 - 00:26:54:11

Speaker 1

Yeah.

‍

00:26:54:15 - 00:27:11:04

Speaker 2

And just for context, the what you guys were building in the early days at the Desire Company is a platform filled with content. So all you were doing was just production, production, production. You were just filming and that's where, that's where the money went in the early days, right?

‍

00:27:11:04 - 00:27:44:21

Speaker 1

Oh yeah. We were just trying to build the database or yeah, a library of production that we could then go out and monetize. But it took a huge upfront investment to be able to get that off the ground and do that without monetization, which, you know, if I could do it again with this company, I would have found the product market fit first before spending all of that money doing something rather than then doing it and then trying to like see where it fits.

‍

00:27:45:24 - 00:28:11:00

Speaker 1

That took us longer than it needed to, longer than it should have. But it also it's, you know, just being that I don't want to say I mean, it is it's been that desperate to find where you're going to get paid from that it also makes you really attentive and listening to the market and seeing what the opportunities are.

‍

00:28:11:12 - 00:28:51:12

Speaker 1

And even if we made some money, I would quickly be like, that's not where we want to go. That's not scalable, That's not that's not the industry we want to be in and testing and learning and testing and learning until like there aha moment, which is typically when you go and build a company and raise investment. We were far past that, which sounds crazy but, but it does you know being in that you know desperate need of securing your company and making sure that you have a future, it makes you incredibly a good listener of what's happening out there.

‍

00:28:51:29 - 00:29:10:25

Speaker 2

And I think that speaks to the person that you are right, because a lot of people have that just growth mentality. I'm going to start something like these guys kettle and bone, the bone broth. I may have butchered their name, so I apologize if I did, but they just did a product market fit before they even started producing their product.

‍

00:29:10:25 - 00:29:18:10

Speaker 2

They didn't even have a supplier for the bone broth and but they got a lot of preorders and that kind of just showed them, Hey, we can do this.

‍

00:29:18:29 - 00:29:41:27

Speaker 1

Well, that's I mean, that's exactly right. And that's the that's the smartest way you could build a business, right? Like, that's what happened to me with my first company without me being aware of it. Like, my brother pointed out that I found a product market fit. I never knew what that meant. And yes, I would not do it the way that we did it again.

‍

00:29:41:27 - 00:29:49:03

Speaker 1

But we are definitely blessed to have found that product market fit. That is a beautiful one.

‍

00:29:49:20 - 00:30:13:08

Speaker 2

Yeah. So both music dealers and the Desire Company have seen significant growth at very different places. What did those experience teach us? What did those experiences teach you about resilience and decision making under pressure? And if you could create a handbook, a11 page playbook for those tough sessions, what would be on it?

‍

00:30:13:08 - 00:30:49:04

Speaker 1

It's a good it's a it's a great question. I was in two very different places in my life with the two companies, so music dealers. I was a kid, like a young kid, and I had very different motivations. So a lot of my decision making was certainly based more on ego and for me and the company and how it was seen in the market versus what might have been a better strategic decision.

‍

00:30:49:04 - 00:30:55:11

Speaker 1

And for the long run, like I was very short term thinking.

‍

00:30:55:11 - 00:30:58:27

Speaker 2

How so?

‍

00:30:58:27 - 00:31:22:29

Speaker 1

It's so like I we opened up offices in Mexico City, in London. I had like seven offices in the in the U.S. Like, I would have taken it way slower. I just thought it looked really cool to have a business card that listed all of our offices. So I was very like when the opportunity came up, I was like, Man, we should open up an office.

‍

00:31:22:29 - 00:31:58:14

Speaker 1

They're like, Let's go like that. Instead of having a remote employee, I would open up an office because I thought that was really, really cool. This, this time around, we have one office in Chicago. We have a ton of remote people in in all types of different cities. But I think also like I was too impatient with music dealers, with hires, so I made a lot of bad hires and then I would be nervous to fire them because they were making some money, but not enough.

‍

00:31:58:14 - 00:32:29:27

Speaker 1

And like now it is the truth. Like, you know, hire slow and fire fast. And that's definitely what I've done differently here. We just went through a seven, eight month recruitment process for our head of sales and that was super painful because you're spending a lot of money that's like, you know, paying a lot of money to a recruiting recruitment agency to go find you this hire, which I always thought I could do that I could find somebody.

‍

00:32:31:06 - 00:32:57:25

Speaker 1

But when you, you know, being a little older and having some bad experiences with those things, you know, letting professionals do their job and getting out of their way is, I would say, a big lesson. Like I always I didn't I didn't think I was smarter than everybody, but I didn't necessarily respect people's expertise in very specific niche areas.

‍

00:32:58:06 - 00:33:29:08

Speaker 1

I'd be like, Oh, you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to this industry. You don't know how that doesn't apply to this industry. Like now I'm very much like, okay, you're an expert at this. I'm going to let you make that decision. And I think that's really important, not just to empower people to do their job for for their happiness, but that's that's why we hired them, because they're a professional in that particular area.

‍

00:33:29:18 - 00:33:53:26

Speaker 1

So letting them make a decision that sometimes I don't agree with necessarily you'd like. Obviously, if I adamantly disagree or if I really think it's bad for business, I'm going to step in and say we're not we're not doing that today. But you know, there's a lot of things that I'm like, I don't I don't see it. But if you guys believe in it, like let's go for it and supporting them, I think that that's pretty important.

‍

00:33:53:26 - 00:34:27:18

Speaker 1

That's an important aspect. I mean, when it comes to specifically how to handle situations under pressure, I would just say that there's a lot of people who will tell you like you never have to you never have to stop running your business no matter what. Like no matter what. You could always keep going. You could always sustain a little bit longer, even if you have to cut way down.

‍

00:34:27:18 - 00:34:59:28

Speaker 1

Like that was the thing. Like I never wanted, even when finances were like, Hey, we should probably close one of these offices and let some people go so that we could buy a longer runway or whatever it is. I never wanted to do that because I thought that like made me look bad versus now like you got to do what's best for the the outcome of the business, the longevity of the business, the the valuation of the business versus anything that's, you know, personal to me.

‍

00:35:01:14 - 00:35:13:29

Speaker 2

That's so true. And I know you're a very spiritual man. Do you have a practice that you lean on in those tough times, like you go out on a walk, do a meditation? What's your what's your go to?

‍

00:35:14:08 - 00:35:35:14

Speaker 1

I meditate every day on it. I think the you know, I think one thing that I do, transcendental meditation 26 minutes every morning and the last 6 minutes is, is I visualize my day. So I will literally visualize the meetings that I have coming up and what I want, how I want those meetings to go and what I want the outcomes to be.

‍

00:35:36:01 - 00:36:12:09

Speaker 1

And I find it really effective, like really, really effective. Otherwise, not yelling at people is something, you know, I used to have like, no qualms about arguing with employees or with customers or with vendors or like, whatever. And now it's like, that doesn't get you anywhere that, that that might satisfy you in the moment, but that's harmful beyond imagination in the long run.

‍

00:36:12:09 - 00:36:24:09

Speaker 1

So being, being quiet in terms of in times of like anger, I find the the best.

‍

00:36:24:09 - 00:36:35:18

Speaker 2

It just sparked a memory. I don't I don't know how much you want to say on this, but I don't know if you remember the TPP slight disaster that we went through, but I'd love to talk about that if you're cool with it.

‍

00:36:36:08 - 00:36:40:13

Speaker 1

I actually don't remember it entirely. But if you want to list, I'm happy to.

‍

00:36:40:22 - 00:37:05:10

Speaker 2

So just to second story, we got funds because, you know, we were still operating during COVID, but of course couldn't make any sales. And I'm not going to mention the bank, but they the ball big time. They connected us with this employee that had us submit our application for more. We had submitted the application based on our calculation.

‍

00:37:05:23 - 00:37:32:18

Speaker 2

Everything was fine. They asked to go get more because we could next thing you know, they don't want to forgive it. They're like, Yeah, you never should have applied for it. We were in the bank yelling at the bankers, which didn't do anything. We were on the phone for hours. Yeah, and the moral of the story is, yeah, I don't know if yelling or just persistence worked because they did end up just for giving it one day out of nowhere.

‍

00:37:32:18 - 00:37:53:28

Speaker 1

I know that you tell it. I remember. Well, that was so ridiculous. Yeah. They kept on bothering me and he was. He was like, Please call me back. I've got your money like that. It, it, it. And I finally called the guy and he was like, Hey, I can get you more money for people. Like, like a bank isn't supposed to do that.

‍

00:37:54:00 - 00:38:21:21

Speaker 1

And they're supposed to call me telling me to fill out forms, asking them for, you know, free money. So, yes, they eventually they were like, Yeah, we messed up. Sorry, everything's good. But yeah, that the persistence I would say, is what I, you know, we talk about this every day at work is like if you think you're going to do something once and get the result you're looking for, you're crazy.

‍

00:38:22:06 - 00:38:32:05

Speaker 1

Like with any cell, with any you reach out with any anything. Like the persistence is the only thing that gets you there it is.

‍

00:38:32:05 - 00:38:48:06

Speaker 2

And that employee ended up not working there. We couldn't get in touch with him, couldn't pierce the corporate veil. That's why it's also good to mention that, you know, working with a more regional or local bank is also good to have. But those were those were fun times.

‍

00:38:48:14 - 00:38:52:23

Speaker 1

That dude definitely got fired for sure. That was wild.

‍

00:38:53:06 - 00:39:05:13

Speaker 2

He did. He did. So real quick, how do you protect family time with Judith and the kids? By running a high velocity company. You know, you get a three and a half year old boy, right? Let's remind your son's name again.

‍

00:39:05:23 - 00:39:06:14

Speaker 1

Stiles.

‍

00:39:06:20 - 00:39:15:16

Speaker 2

Stiles. Awesome name. How do you how do you manage in balance between family and in a fast growing company?

‍

00:39:16:09 - 00:39:44:02

Speaker 1

I think you said the right word is protect it. Right? How do you protect that time? And you have to look at it like that and guard it and not let anything get in the way of that that time. And, you know, I'm fortunate that I work with my wife. At the same time, you have to be very very careful and disciplined that it's not all work at all the time.

‍

00:39:44:05 - 00:40:08:19

Speaker 1

When we go out to dinner, just the two of us, it's very tempting just to talk about work as though we're in a meeting and we have to be very conscious and make really, really like we used to have this joke at the company that, you know, Judith and I have two separate sinks in the bathroom, and while we're brushing your teeth, I would come up with a business idea and like, talk to her about whatever.

‍

00:40:08:19 - 00:40:40:11

Speaker 1

And she'd be like, Yeah, So again, midnight in the bathroom. Here's Eric's, you know, request for the day. Like, bah bah bah bah bah bah. And initially we made a decision like, no talking about work in our bedroom or, you know, anything like that. But, but, but it's more so making sure that you have blocked time. And I have a great, great executive assistant who puts time on my calendar every single day.

‍

00:40:40:19 - 00:41:06:05

Speaker 1

And I says, you know, time for Stiles, time with meal, time with family, prepare for dinner family time. And then I get back and then it's, you know, work time again. So it's like that. That's really helped me just being fair. And I'm not that type of guy. Not time structured naturally, but I found that is the most helpful way that it's like weekends are for the family.

‍

00:41:06:16 - 00:41:34:12

Speaker 1

I used to work 24 hours a day, seven days a week because I, I just I enjoy building, but I enjoy my family life even more. So it's it's a balance. There's a lot of times I would say that it's never it's never fully balanced. It's, you know, either work absolutely will dominate at times and that's okay. And then there's times where I'm like, you know what?

‍

00:41:34:12 - 00:41:53:22

Speaker 1

I'm not going to work today. I'm just going to spend I'm going to keep Stiles home from day care and we're just going to hang out. Are we going to go to the park or like whatever it is? And that gets more of the attention eventually. I think it it needs to balance out for success and your mental and, you know, emotional happiness.

‍

00:41:54:16 - 00:42:20:00

Speaker 2

Yeah. And you're dealing with not dealing, but you have a child's life. You have a human life in your hands and you are the one that gets to mold that into what it's going to become in the future. And and one thing that I've noticed that not all successful people are created equal, but there's usually something about their childhood influence from their father and mother or something that translate into a successful life.

‍

00:42:20:17 - 00:42:27:06

Speaker 2

Can you pinpoint that aspect that you may have received that you may be doing with the kids?

‍

00:42:27:17 - 00:42:55:15

Speaker 1

Yeah, it's a 100%. So for me, it was my mom at six years old, seven years old, she started setting me up with lemonade stands in front of the house and I loved it so much. Like so much like I got such a rush from taking this really cheap powder, mixing it with free water and sign it for a dollar a cup.

‍

00:42:55:15 - 00:43:28:02

Speaker 1

Like, I couldn't believe it. And I was so into it that when I got a little older, like, you know, literally like 9010, 11, I would have all my friends and we would dominate the corners of Chicago like there was in our neighborhood. It's the the main walkway to the beach in Chicago to Lake Michigan. So in the summer, I would have them all along the beach and I would get on my roller blades and I would go deliver stuff in the morning and we would sell cookies and fruit skewers.

‍

00:43:28:09 - 00:43:59:22

Speaker 1

So I'd be sitting there with my mom making the fruit skewers and then going and delivering Tupperware to everybody, checking them, you know, a couple hours later who was out of what. And I got such enjoyment out of that. So by my publishing company, written a couple of books and my publishing company is called Lemonade Made because it is about, you know, those lessons that just got me into business and entrepreneurship for for Styles maybe a month ago.

‍

00:43:59:22 - 00:44:25:04

Speaker 1

We there's something in Chicago called Taste of Lincoln Avenue, and we had a booth at the festival selling his he has a book published a children's book called Hip Hip in a way, Chicago. And then he has clothing line, which he sells hats and shirts is, you know, three and a half. He doesn't really know what's going on, but his clothing line is called Great Day.

‍

00:44:25:04 - 00:44:47:08

Speaker 1

It's it's awesome. He wears the clothes every single day and he's got, you know, all types of things. So to me, having him work the booth and like set up the clothes and stand there and see that transaction and he knows like we designed it, he picks all that. I design the clothes, but he picks which ones we're actually going to print out, which ones he likes the most and what to name them.

‍

00:44:47:19 - 00:44:57:26

Speaker 1

And then seeing people buy that, I hope he'll I hope it makes a positive impact. I hope he'll remember it. But like, to me, that is the elevated version of the lemonade stand.

‍

00:44:59:00 - 00:45:08:14

Speaker 2

That's so cool. Is that how you got your investment in some music dealers? Yeah, just in the fall. And already by the time you were, When did you start music dealers?

‍

00:45:09:12 - 00:45:14:16

Speaker 1

So I started music dealers when I was 21, 2010, 22.

‍

00:45:16:03 - 00:45:19:26

Speaker 2

Where you had that. You had that license. That first license. Cash flow.

‍

00:45:20:11 - 00:45:46:20

Speaker 1

Yep. Yep. And that's, that's what I'm saying. Like there I had a product market fit. So that's the way to do it. When you're when you're having fun, finding that enjoyment, doing something that you like, and then you see like, Wow, I could really scale this. That's your product market fit. That's when you that's when you should build your business or exactly, like you said, cattle and broth or bone or whatever it is did it.

‍

00:45:47:15 - 00:46:05:26

Speaker 1

And I have friends who do this. They'll come up with ideas, they'll throw up a landing page and they'll run a couple of, you know, they'll run $500 in ads on Facebook and see if people actually preorder. And if they preorder, they're like, okay, this is a real business. Like, this is an opportunity and they'll go and do it.

‍

00:46:06:21 - 00:46:07:26

Speaker 1

That's how I would do it.

‍

00:46:08:06 - 00:46:09:13

Speaker 2

If I were to take away.

‍

00:46:09:27 - 00:46:10:07

Speaker 1

Yeah.

‍

00:46:11:05 - 00:46:24:22

Speaker 2

Let's close up with a quick rapid fire questions. So I want to know what's one metric you check every single week without fail or something you look at when you're getting your coffee in the morning.

‍

00:46:24:22 - 00:46:40:00

Speaker 1

I would say engagement of our videos regarding the conversion on retailer's website. So how how well our content is performing against any other type of content that's out there in the world.

‍

00:46:40:08 - 00:46:46:23

Speaker 2

Okay, that's great. Name one book podcast or speech you recommend most to founders under pressure.

‍

00:46:48:20 - 00:47:19:14

Speaker 1

Tap into an Expert is a my podcast, which you have to join me on soon. But it's we have we have the leading the leading experts in the industry on advertising and retail e-commerce. You know, it's a lot of really good takes from, from more of a spiritual perspective from from books, I would say the Seven Spiritual Laws of Success by Deepak Chopra.

‍

00:47:20:11 - 00:47:35:02

Speaker 1

You know, the four agreements are good. And then from a business perspective, and even like having is a good one from a business perspective, built to last, how I built this.

‍

00:47:36:21 - 00:47:39:05

Speaker 2

There's your books as well.

‍

00:47:39:20 - 00:47:48:18

Speaker 1

I am. That's a good point. Hip brands, How Music Creates Value for the World's Smartest Brands and Return It The Hustle. The Art of Marketing with Music.

‍

00:47:49:08 - 00:47:53:09

Speaker 2

Okay, I'm going to have to read at least one of those and would love to join you on your podcast.

‍

00:47:53:19 - 00:47:54:03

Speaker 1

Awesome.

‍

00:47:54:14 - 00:47:58:08

Speaker 2

Okay, last one. A founder under pressure should always link.

‍

00:48:00:14 - 00:48:15:20

Speaker 1

Come back to the mission. Why did you start? Never compromise on that. And that's what makes you credible. That's what allows you to build so when you're confused and you don't know which, what's the right decision, come back to the mission.

‍

00:48:16:08 - 00:48:24:17

Speaker 2

And that's why it's so important to have a solid mission that you can focus on every day, day in, day out, even though it's a long term goal.

‍

00:48:25:07 - 00:48:47:29

Speaker 1

Absolutely. I mean, for us, it's about credibility. We have this you know, we have our seal, our mark on every single video. And like, the whole thing is when you see the seal, you know, it's real. Like shoppers actually depend on our seal and that's we can never violate that. So any decision we ever make and my especially it's very tempting to go the air route when it comes to video production these days.

‍

00:48:48:26 - 00:49:16:17

Speaker 1

And and that would completely go against our mission. So being able to come back to that and use that as as your guide on decision making, I think is a very useful tool, but it is important to have all of those things really thought through. And, you know, we even just this this week with our team in town, we went through our mission and vision again and our values as a company and like they do update and adjust.

‍

00:49:16:17 - 00:49:21:04

Speaker 1

But you're always going to feel very passionate about that original mission.

‍

00:49:21:24 - 00:49:43:05

Speaker 2

I'm glad you mentioned those. What you guys doing, what you guys are doing at the Desire Company is really next level and I'd love to see the Desire Company take over Amazon because we all know about the reviews, what we're getting there. Yeah, this was a ton of fun. I can't wait till next time. I really appreciate you appreciate you joining me on this.

‍

00:49:43:16 - 00:49:52:19

Speaker 1

Yeah, good seeing you and thanks for all of your help in the in the early days and and still to this day. So we we all appreciate it. But thank you for having me.

‍

00:49:52:27 - 00:49:54:12

Speaker 2

Of course. Amen.

‍

00:49:54:26 - 00:49:55:23

Speaker 1

All right. Have a good one.

‍

00:49:56:02 - 00:50:12:16

Speaker 2

Too. That's it for today's episode of Growth Under Pressure. I'm Eric Joseph. It's from ADAPT, CFO, and I hope these insights help you tackle your biggest scaling challenges. If you want to help other founders find the show, give us a quick follow or share. Thanks for listening and I hope to catch you next time.

‍

‍

‍